Monday, 20 April 2009
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Some quick thoughts on religion ... (WARNING: VERY CONTROVERSIAL CONTENT!!!)
(My post was inspired by this post, and especially some of the comments in reply to it. Thank you, Garistotle!)
(Also, please note: This will offend a lot of people. Sorry 'bout that.)
The Bible, Doctrine, and Human Nature
Some people that use Xanga are what I would call "extremely religious" - they believe that the bible is the literal word of god, to be taken literally, and followed to the letter. I find this position ludicrous, to be perfectly frank and up-front. (Waits for barrage of sticks and stones to end) I'm sure they have their reasons, but none of them make a lot of sense to me.
I can't, and won't, debate the "accuracy" of the bible or its various translations. I am not a biblical scholar, and I don't have the time to become one. My position is that any text that old (and subject to things like the Council of Nicea, where various doctrines were debated and agreed on) cannot be an exact recounting of events. Nor can it be an exact representation of what the original message was.
However, my biggest problem with the bible (and therefore religions based upon it) is not "historical", it is "doctrinal": It teaches us to despise ouselves and our fellow human beings. That if we were left to ourselves we would do horrible, evil things. We wouldn't ever give to the poor, or be kind, or love anybody. It tells us that we are wicked by nature, and we need a big stick (fear of hell) to keep us in line. That we must be told to be good. It says that what we do here on Earth is nothing, that we are just marking time until we die. It celebrates and glorifies death.
Any doctrine that promotes self-hatred also promotes hatred of others. If you truly believe that you are a miserable sinner, then how low is your opinion of your "neighbour"?
Which is better: Helping the poor because you love Jesus and want to please him, or helping the poor because you love people and want to help them be happier?
Is it truly better to believe that our time here is worthless and not to be enjoyed (don't be "of the world" is one way of putting it), or is it better to believe that this existance is the only one we have and we should make the best of it?
Should we live, love and laugh and not worry about "the rules" we might be breaking? Or should we fret every day that we are bad and flawed and need to try harder to follow those "rules"?
Do you really, honestly believe that if there were no "rules" (ie: the bible) we would all be out raping and thieving and murdering and whoring and torturing and destroying, just because we're that evil inside? That we would do these things, just because we can?
And if we are really so inherently horrible and evil and worthy of contempt, then how could a set of two thousand year old "rules" control us? Or is it only fear of the "consequences" (ie: hell) that makes us control ourselves?
I choose to believe that most people are inherently good. They only want to be happy, to be loved, to love in return, to make others happy. I don't believe that all people are worthy of contempt, or that most people are inherently evil and wish to do evil. Are there some people that are? Of course. Are they the norm? Of course not.
Therefore I reject a doctrine that says we are all evil from birth. That says we will never be good enough, and must always beg forgiveness for our transgressions against some arbitrary "rules".
I do have some other arguments against "organised religion", but this is the main one.
Feel free to light your torches and grab your pitchforks now.
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Comments (75)
*avoids this one like the plague* Glad to see you are back Broad. I did that photo thingy, and it sort of took off.
"I choose to believe that most people are inherently good." I completely share this belief. I'd even go further and say that virtually everyone is doing their best to try and be and stay good too throughout most of their lives. We just screw up a lot.
Loved it.
good post!
I'm an atheist, and one person actually asked me " well if you're not religious and don't believe in hell, why are you such a good person?"
(I'm a very moral, rule-abiding person)
and I asked him " are you telling me you're only a good person because you're scared you'll go to hell if you're not?"
he answered yes!
which was so funny to me!
hehe take care xox
"I choose to believe that most people are inherently good." Well,unlike nephyo, I disagree with this. I don't think people are inherently good (if you've ever been in a room full of two year olds and seen one punch the other in the face for a toy it becomes pretty obvious that we're not all good and loving in our heart of hearts.) That said, I don't think people are inherently evil either. I'm a Hobbsian. All of us are equally capable of doing good or doing evil, and everyone's really just out to feed their own appetite. We do good or bad things based on social contracts. I do unto you as I would have you do unto me. Or I do unto you as I perceive you have done unto me. Good and evil are just social negotiations (or reactions to social negotiations) and all self-serving at their base.
Though, as a whole I agree with this post.
Great post. All the points are extremely logical and it would be extremely difficult to find a loophole in your assessment.
I see your points. I feel the bible is probably the best book written about human nature. Better than Shakespeare : ) We are not perfect toward each other, we have selfishness and pride etc that hurts our relationships. The new testiment's message to love god and love your neighbor reminds me of a harrassed parent talking to bickering children.
yay, you're back. my blog misses your presence.
i sure hope you don't get pitchforks. i like you. i thinik more people, whatever they believe, should ask these questions, also.
REVELIFE, ftw.
Awesome. I 100% agree. :D
@TheBigShowAtUD - Yeah I think you should be able to post this on revelife, they have some answers to give, methinks.
@haloed - yeah, definitely. this would be one of the better posts on their site, actually.
@TheBigShowAtUD - Something we could all talk about! Instead of just, "Does God still love me if I do x, y, or z?" lol.
I am probably one of the crazy, religious nuts that you noted, but no pitchforks here. I did want to clarify one thing, however. I believe non-Christian people can be very good and do very good things. Why? Because the book of Genesis says that humans are created in the image of God--therefore having God's characteristics. I believe God is good, and that is why I believe most humans--even the most evil--are capable of doing good things. One of my good friends is Muslim, and he is one of the kindest people I know....Now I don't believe those good works will get them into heaven, but that's a post for another day. :)
BURN THE WITCH!
Just kidding, nicely worded. I've done a whole lot of research on this, and it's interesting learning about the different forms of Christianity around in the second and third centuries. Because orthodox Christianity was embraced by Emperor Constantine, it became more powerful than, say Ebionites, Marcionites or Gnostics. Otherwise other gospels would be canonical, and we could be worshiping a completely human Jesus or a completely god Jesus with no true body, rather than a Jesus who was both God and man. All a matter of the winners writing history.
I've had some of the same issues with organized religion... these and a lot more. You sure got to the meat of though. Great post!
@storyslut - I like your analogy. That's cute and I've often felt the same way about it. People can be good to each other just because they love their own kind, as they should, but also for perfectly common sense reasons of harmony. They are like bickering children when they're not mature enough to see that.
Yeah, you're back. Well written, honest. You rock
@misstephy - I hate how hard it can be to explain to someone that you don't need God or hell to be moral...
@RaVnR - me too!! and it's true they don't understand it!
if the only reason you don't steal, rape, murder, etc. is because you're scared of being punished after you die...are you truly a good person?? loll
Have you read the Bible?
Jesus commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves.
I don't see how that tells me I should have a low opinion of my neighbor.
Jesus never promoted self hatred.
The whole purpose of our existence is to please God.
Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine.
How does that mean our time here should not be enjoyed?
God's commandments are there for reasons.
The consequences are here and now, not just eternal.
His commandments are made with our best interests in mind.
hahahaha,,, controversal,,,, a stupid word in itself,,, as that scumbag once said,,, "why cant we all just get along" hahahaha,,,
there is a god,,, several i would guess,,, im one,,, so why shouldnt you be?? i dunno,,,,,
i always have been,,, i always will be,,, in one form or another,,, othewise,,, why am i here? (thats common sense).
i used to allow my kids to attend some church functions,,, but when i went to pick them up a couple of times and arrived in time to hear the terroristic threats issued by the church in question to my kids,,, i put a stopper on that one.
its training,,, churches do it,,, your job,,, (if you dont own your own business) does it,,,, your government does it,,,, hahahahaha,,, along with any business,,, attempting to train the consumer,,,,, along with any breakaway group,,, (hippie communes) hahahahahaha,,,
i guess im just untrainable,,, i like it that way,,, i guess ill stay that way,,,,
However, my biggest problem with the bible (and therefore religions
based upon it) is not "historical", it is "doctrinal": It teaches us to
despise ourselves and our fellow human beings. That if we were left to
ourselves we would do horrible, evil things. We wouldn't ever give to
the poor, or be kind, or love anybody.
That's only true of Calvinists. I believe that we have a sinful nature which is why we all at some time will do bad things, but I also believe that we can do good things. An atheist is capable of doing good things. The problem is not that we can't do good things, but if God is real, that we have sinned against him.
Any doctrine that promotes self-hatred also promotes hatred of others.
If you truly believe that you are a miserable sinner, then how low is
your opinion of your "neighbour"?
That's a straw-man. It doesn't promote self hatred. Acknowledging that we have sinned is not equivalent to self hatred. Being convicted of sin is not the same as hating yourself. If I'm convicted of sin, I love myself enough to want to be forgive. If I hated myself, I wouldn't want to be forgiven. The bible says we should love one another. I try to act nice towards those that aren't Christians.
Which is better: Helping the poor because you love Jesus and want to
please him, or helping the poor because you love people and want to
help them be happier?
Another straw-man. It's not an either/or. I help people because I want to help them, not merely because God says so.
Is it truly better to believe that our time here is worthless and not to be enjoyed
Who says that Christians don't enjoy their time here and that it's worthless? To not be of the world means to not partake in sinful things. I am much happier now as a Christian than when I wasn't. I don't have to partake in getting drunk or getting high or having pre-marital sex in order to be happy.
Should we live, love and laugh and not worry about "the rules" we might
be breaking? Or should we fret every day that we are bad and flawed and
need to try harder to follow those "rules"?
I don't fret every day about breaking rules. I just try to be nice to people and I know that if I do sin, God forgives me.
Do you really, honestly believe that if there were no "rules" (ie: the bible) we would all be out raping and thieving and murdering and whoring and torturing and destroying, just because we're that evil inside? That we would do these things, just because we can?
There might be some Christians that believe that but I believe that morals can exist without God.
And if we are really so inherently horrible and evil and worthy of
contempt, then how could a set of two thousand year old "rules" control
us? Or is it only fear of the "consequences" (ie: hell) that makes us
control ourselves?
The rules don't control me. When I gave my life to God, he changed me. I don't have the desire to get high or drunk anymore. I enjoy life without those things. You're right that nobody in their right mind would want to go to hell, but that is not the reason for wanting to not sin. It's based upon loving God and loving people. I don't desire to hurt other people. It has nothing to do with hell.
I choose to believe that most people are inherently good. They only
want to be happy, to be loved, to love in return, to make others happy.
That may be true but in the scenario where God doesn't exist, good and evil would be relative. If God is real, then even though we may do some good things, we have the problem of sin in our lives, which is why Jesus died for our sins.
@musterion99 - someone took logic.
I'm also one of those people you'd call a religious nut, but I too don't bring pitchforks. I think there are some fallacies in your understanding of what Christians believe, or at least Christians like me. There are an awful lot of us, so obviously our beliefs are far from identical. That's why I don't really consider myself religious. I believe the Bible is the word of God and infallible...but people who interpret and make up religions are capable of mistakes. I base my beliefs on the Bible and my relationship with Christ. I attend a church and consider myself part of the fundamentalist Christian religion, but my 'religion' or any set of man-made rules will not get me to heaven. And fear of hell is not what causes me to want to do good. I do good because Jesus asks us to love one another as he loves us. I am much more likely to do evil than good, though most people would agree I am a kind, giving and compassionate person. I only succeed at being self-less when I surrender to Christ. On my own, I revert to a selfish, greedy, coveting person who sometimes does the right thing.
@musterion99 - Very well stated.